WEBVTT
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Welcome everyone to our webinar today
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on Make the Case for Product Delivery.
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Today, when talking about making the case
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for product delivery in your organization,
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we'll be talking about three key steps.
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First, a common definition for product.
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Second, we'll be talking about how to realize the benefits
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and challenges around product delivery.
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And third, we'll be discussing the capabilities needed
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to effectively own products and to deliver value.
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Now, Info-Tech, first of all,
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a little bit about Info-Tech Research Group.
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Info-Tech Research Group produces unbiased
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and highly relevant research to help leaders make strategic,
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timely, and well-informed decisions.
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We partner closely with your teams
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to provide everything that you need
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from actionable tools to analyst guidance,
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ensuring that they deliver measurable value
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and results for the organization.
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Now, a few housekeeping items
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before we all get started here.
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So first of all, all members of this webinar are muted
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to make sure we can hear all the content.
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I would encourage all of you to post any questions,
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comments, or technical challenges in the Q&A section,
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which you should see to the right of your screen.
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We will be monitoring the Q&A,
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and we'll try to answer some of the questions
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at the end of the session.
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Lastly, we will send all registrants
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a copy of the webinar slides
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and a recording of the webinar itself in a few days.
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We would like to start off and introduce ourselves.
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I have with me with Suneel Ghei.
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Suneel, would you care to introduce yourself?
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Thanks Ari, so my name is Suneel Ghei.
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I've been a member of the IT industry in Toronto here
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for about 30 years.
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I've led development teams, product management teams.
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I've been on the business side as well.
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So I've really seen this product management organization
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opportunity from all angles.
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And I look forward to bringing some of that perspective
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to you today.
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Back to you, Ari.
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Thank you, Suneel.
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And just to introduce myself, my name is Ari Glaizel.
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I'm a practice lead for our Application, Delivery,
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and Management Practice at Info-Tech.
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My background has been, past 25 years
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based out of the Toronto area as well,
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in roles ranging from software development,
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all the way through product management and product strategy.
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Very passionate about the space and really look forward
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to sharing some of this with you today.
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One more thing, by the way, we have as well Paulo,
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who will be on hand to help with any technical matters
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that might come up and will do his best
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to resolve any issues that you may have.
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So feel free to reach out to him
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if you are having any technical issues with the webinar.
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Now, the first question that I always ask
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when I talk to anyone around product is, why move there?
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Like, why do you wanna move to product delivery?
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Whenever we talk to our members,
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we see there are two broad pains.
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So first, business goals end up being unsupported by IT
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and second IT is busy.
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They are building and providing solutions,
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but they don't seem to be directly aligned
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with what the business actually needs.
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What these two pains talk about is the lack of real
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partnership between business and IT.
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Moving to a product delivery is about creating
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a stronger sense of partnership between what
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the business needs and what it can effectively provide.
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Now from an Info-Tech perspective,
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product delivery is not just a single document,
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a single class or a single piece of research.
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It is a journey.
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This research touches on many different pieces
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of this journey to help you get started
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and make the case for product delivery.
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All of these links will be sure to provide post workshops
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so that you can do your own investigation yourself
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on what it takes to move to product delivery.
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Now, when we are making the case,
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there are three key activities that we see
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that are critical to help, that will help you create
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your product delivery proposal.
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The research that we have will help guide you
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through this process.
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And there's through three simple steps.
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One, defining product in your context,
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second, understanding and articulating your drivers
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and goals for product delivery
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and three, understanding and articulating the role
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of product ownership when it comes to product delivery.
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When we talk about improving the alignment
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between business and IT, we are talking about
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an improvement along three different avenues.
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First of all, collaboration.
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We want IT business and customers working together
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throughout all stages of the product life cycle.
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From market research, through road mapping
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and delivery processes,
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and as well into maintenance and retirement.
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This goal is to ensure that the risks and dependencies
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are realized well before the work is committed
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and someone writes a line of code.
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Second, a key part is communication.
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We wanna prioritize those high value modes of communication
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and break down those existing silos that are there
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in many organizations.
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And I'm sure we all can relate here.
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This approach increases transparency and visibility
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across the entire product life cycle.
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And third, integration.
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We want to explore methods to integrate
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workflows, decision making, tool sets
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amongst business IT and customers.
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The goal is to become more reactive to changes in business
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and customer expectations and being more proactive
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about market trends.
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Now, let's talk about what a product actually is.
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Most of the problems with any kind of transformation
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with product transformations included,
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not from a lack of alignment.
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Everybody wants to deliver more effectively,
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but it even starts with a basic lack
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of a definition of terms.
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Many of our product blueprints and research
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starts with this simple question,
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because it's such a hard one to answer.
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Now from an Info-Tech perspective,
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a general definition that we leverage goes something like
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it being a tangible solution tool or service
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that enables the long term and evolving delivery of value
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to customers and stakeholders based on business
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and end user requirements.
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The key thing that comes into this definition,
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there are three key aspects.
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One, products are long-term endeavors that don't end
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after a single project or a single initiative ends.
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Secondly, products are not just applications.
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They aren't just a spot on a website let's say,
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but they can be software or services or processes
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that help drive the delivery of value.
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And third, third and very important is that
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there is more than one group that derives value
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from the product or service.
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It's not just about necessarily just about that end user.
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There's a variety of stakeholders and a variety of people
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that need to be involved.
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So Suneel, let me ask you,
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when you've worked with our other members,
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what have you seen in terms of their challenges
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in defining product in their context?
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Thanks Ari.
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So I think one of the biggest challenges we see quite a bit
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is members will look at product as something
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that they sell to their clients.
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So they're very much external facing.
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They often forget to consider their products
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are also things that are internal facing.
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Sometimes they're things that don't even have
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anything to do with software.
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So it's really, they have to focus on that piece
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that talks about the delivery of value to customers,
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whether they're internal customers or external customers.
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Absolutely very good points Suneel and thank you
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because we do see products, products and services
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as being extremely similar.
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And whether we're talking about external products,
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internal products or external services or internal services.
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They are all, we all talk about them very similarly.
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There is, it's very important there that
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there is a long term delivery of value there.
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They don't start an end with a particular project date.
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And the activities are very similar around building out
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backlogs and roadmaps and all the different
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delivery practices that wrap around it.
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They are much more similar than they are different.
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Thank you Suneel.
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Now, a key point that I was mentioning before,
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is that products go well beyond in an initial project.
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And this is very important that this comes through
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in any disconversation that you have with leadership
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or any stakeholder,
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any stakeholder you're talking about a product-centric
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delivery practice with.
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Products enable the long term and continuous
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delivery of value.
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Projects still exist.
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Projects will tend not to go away.
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They're still there for a variety of good reasons,
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but you want people to be talking about the thing
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that goes beyond the individual projects.
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You want people to be talking around the water cooler
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about the things on the top here and not necessarily
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the pieces on the bottom.
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You want everybody to be looking forward,
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looking beyond that immediate due date.
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The next question that comes up, and this is very specific.
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And a lot of times is very specific to your particular
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organization, is how do we know what is a product.
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Info-Tech will help you walk through,
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walk through an exercise like this,
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to better understand whether those things
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that you can consider a product
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and what are those things that are not.
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Common examples, if you have a one time solution
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that may not be considered to be a product.
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If you have something for example, that has
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quantifiable value that evolves in changes over time,
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as you can see on the right hand side,
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those are the kinds of criteria that you can apply
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to confirm whether or not something can be treated
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as a product, and whether you want to wrap
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product as product delivery practices around it.
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Suneel, what mistakes do you see people make
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when deciding what should
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or should not be treated as a product?
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I think one of the most common ones we hear
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about these days is people are very good
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at calling out products where they own the development.
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They often forget that there are many things
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that are products that they buy from someone else,
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but they still deliver value.
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They still evolve or change over time.
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They still have predictable delivery.
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So a very common one these days is people are realizing
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because of the value you can get from something
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like office 365, that in many businesses office 365
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is actually a product.
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It delivers changing value over time.
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They have a roadmap for it,
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between how they choose to configure it
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and how Microsoft releases new features to it.
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And they have a pretty regular schedule for delivery
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and consuming new releases.
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So you really need to take the definition to heart
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and look at everything you use in that context.
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Thank you Suneel and wholeheartedly agree.
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Now, once we get to a common understanding
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of what a product is,
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the next step that we walk you through is understanding
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the drivers and goals for your product transformation.
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Why do you want to go there?
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This is a lot harder than many people think
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and can be very specific to the nature of your business,
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your history, and the challenges that you're running into.
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Some of the common themes that we see
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that drive this exercise include
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for example, if you were in a, as part of a very heavily
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siloed organization,
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if teams don't talk between one another.
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One other common theme is,
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people who are focused on individual projects,
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not longer term thinking,
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nobody is thinking farther ahead than the quarter.
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The poor communication and misalignment
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between business and IT
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which has downstream impacts and usually manifests itself
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in this kind of exercise around prioritization choices
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and funding, where you're misaligned there.
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And a common one as well as to why people wanna move
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to more product-centric practices is around they feel
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that they're in a constant state of emergency.
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What I call the hurdling comment problem.
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There's there are comments coming everywhere.
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So how can we be planful?
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How can we plan for the future?
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This causes many good intended governance practices
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to go by the wayside.
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Suneel, anything to add?
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Do you see anything else with our members?
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Yeah, I think one other that we've heard a lot about
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is that end to end focus in an organization
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that product-centric can give.
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The ability to see all the users.
283
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So oftentimes organizations are good at funneling requests
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to someone who is the arbiter of those requests.
285
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That person will call themselves the product owner,
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but they miss the step where the product owner
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is looking back to make sure all the other users
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of the product are aligned and need similar things,
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as opposed to just serving one master for every request.
290
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Thank you Suneel, absolutely.
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And that definitely is a common problem I've seen as well.
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Now as you are making the case for product-centric delivery,
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it's important to understand in articulating your case,
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how work will actually change in the organization.
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As you can see from this slide here,
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the work doesn't go away,
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but you'll find that the focus changes,
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changes from individuals where it's centered
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around individuals or very centralized roles
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to more team based and team focused,
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where they control aspects of the delivery.
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Now the next step after really articulating that definition,
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understanding the case and understanding
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how work broadly changes.
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I get asked all the time,
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Ari, what should be our next step?
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Now the answer may surprise you.
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It's not about putting a roadmap into place.
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It's not about getting the right user story
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or the right backlog into place.
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It's about accountability.
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Who is accountable for the delivery of value
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for the given product, product family, or service.
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Regardless of the terminology that you use.
315
00:16:00.250 --> 00:16:02.848
And again, there's a lot of different terminologies
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that go around when it con talking about product management,
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whether you're talking about a product owner,
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product manager.
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The concept of product ownership is a key discipline
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that you need to be thinking about upfront.
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Without somebody that is accountable
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for the product that you are looking to deliver,
323
00:16:21.210 --> 00:16:23.760
how can you improve your delivery practices at all?
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Now, the next question that people immediately ask
325
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is where should these product owners come from?
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The biggest fight that I see is, should be coming from IT,
327
00:16:36.780 --> 00:16:38.040
should be coming from the business,
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should be coming from somewhere else.
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The answer is truly it depends
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and different organizations do approach this
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in different ways.
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But what's important there is that,
333
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to always consider the products that are being managed
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and the perspective required to own that effectively.
335
00:16:57.400 --> 00:16:59.364
Are we up talking about a product that impacts
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business needs?
337
00:17:01.230 --> 00:17:03.840
Are we talking about an IT system or tool?
338
00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:06.884
For example, something like office 365, let's say,
339
00:17:06.884 --> 00:17:11.630
or something infrastructure based or network based.
340
00:17:11.630 --> 00:17:13.390
Are we talking about a process that helps
341
00:17:13.390 --> 00:17:16.450
keeps the lights on, it keeps things running.
342
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Depending on the answer to this question,
343
00:17:18.520 --> 00:17:21.830
your product ownership may come from a completely different
344
00:17:21.830 --> 00:17:23.540
part of the business.
345
00:17:23.540 --> 00:17:27.590
Note that where they come from and who they work with,
346
00:17:27.590 --> 00:17:29.870
those are entirely different questions.
347
00:17:29.870 --> 00:17:32.720
And a lot of times those questions gets munched together.
348
00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:40.060
Now, double clicking even further around product ownership
349
00:17:40.060 --> 00:17:41.870
and product management.
350
00:17:41.870 --> 00:17:45.560
It's very important to really consider the capabilities
351
00:17:45.560 --> 00:17:50.560
that you want to have and support in your product team.
352
00:17:52.390 --> 00:17:56.653
Now, it's not just about writing a good user story.
353
00:17:58.126 --> 00:18:00.330
It's much more than that.
354
00:18:00.330 --> 00:18:03.380
And we see that across four distinct dimensions.
355
00:18:03.380 --> 00:18:08.370
Vision, leadership, product life cycle management,
356
00:18:08.370 --> 00:18:09.843
and value realization.
357
00:18:10.940 --> 00:18:13.660
Now, traditionally, the misconception is that
358
00:18:13.660 --> 00:18:15.940
product management is all about the product life cycle
359
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management piece.
360
00:18:17.490 --> 00:18:21.690
But depending on how strategic you are, there are other
361
00:18:21.690 --> 00:18:24.660
quadrants which are significantly important.
362
00:18:24.660 --> 00:18:27.820
One for example, here that I actually,
363
00:18:27.820 --> 00:18:29.650
when I am interviewing product managers,
364
00:18:29.650 --> 00:18:32.960
I tend to look for first and that is leadership.
365
00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:36.480
Somebody to be able to, that can collaborate with others
366
00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:40.190
that has the soft skills to be able to lead and drive
367
00:18:40.190 --> 00:18:42.560
without having the employee badge,
368
00:18:42.560 --> 00:18:45.000
to compel somebody to follow their will.
369
00:18:46.700 --> 00:18:50.393
And so that's just a small example there of really
370
00:18:50.393 --> 00:18:53.400
some of the skills that people don't necessarily think about
371
00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:55.070
that is so critical that you need
372
00:18:55.070 --> 00:18:57.103
in your product management function.
373
00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:01.700
Suneel, what have you found from your background
374
00:19:01.700 --> 00:19:03.100
and from talking to our members
375
00:19:03.100 --> 00:19:05.143
as being the most important skills,
376
00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:08.720
for those in product management roles?
377
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:09.590
Thanks Ari.
378
00:19:09.590 --> 00:19:12.630
For me, it's really first and foremost about
379
00:19:12.630 --> 00:19:14.670
that vision piece.
380
00:19:14.670 --> 00:19:16.950
The best product owners I've ever known
381
00:19:16.950 --> 00:19:19.610
are truly visionary at their core.
382
00:19:19.610 --> 00:19:22.500
They're able to understand what's going on
383
00:19:22.500 --> 00:19:25.250
around their product, define a vision,
384
00:19:25.250 --> 00:19:28.940
and then inspire people to go on that journey with them.
385
00:19:28.940 --> 00:19:31.970
And once they can inspire those people, leading them,
386
00:19:31.970 --> 00:19:34.490
getting the collaboration, being able to manage
387
00:19:34.490 --> 00:19:38.710
the life cycle of it and driving the value are all
388
00:19:38.710 --> 00:19:40.690
fast followed that come behind
389
00:19:40.690 --> 00:19:43.033
having that vision nailed down first.
390
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:45.833
Suneel thank you.
391
00:19:45.833 --> 00:19:48.700
And I completely agree vision is incredibly important
392
00:19:48.700 --> 00:19:51.180
and being able to point to that spot on the mountain
393
00:19:51.180 --> 00:19:52.963
on where you want people to go to.
394
00:19:53.840 --> 00:19:54.673
Thank you.
395
00:19:57.010 --> 00:20:00.450
Now, I've been purposely very loosely using the term
396
00:20:00.450 --> 00:20:04.110
product manager and product owner throughout the webinar.
397
00:20:04.110 --> 00:20:08.090
The terms themselves are not important.
398
00:20:08.090 --> 00:20:10.810
Quite honestly, you can call them whatever you like
399
00:20:10.810 --> 00:20:14.400
would ask that you be consistent with what you call them.
400
00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:18.780
But really look at them as to the role that they play.
401
00:20:18.780 --> 00:20:22.290
There is somebody that plays the tactical side of that role,
402
00:20:22.290 --> 00:20:25.530
and someone plays more the strategic side of that role.
403
00:20:25.530 --> 00:20:28.540
Where the person that's accountable for backlog management
404
00:20:28.540 --> 00:20:32.870
and prioritization, helping enabling development by putting,
405
00:20:32.870 --> 00:20:35.960
helping move the requirements to stories,
406
00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:37.590
working with the scrum master.
407
00:20:37.590 --> 00:20:40.290
I mean, that's more the tactical form of that role,
408
00:20:40.290 --> 00:20:43.210
where when you look at the strategic form of the role
409
00:20:43.210 --> 00:20:47.470
that is more on the vision and roadmap side,
410
00:20:47.470 --> 00:20:51.790
looking outward, looking towards what the future looks like,
411
00:20:51.790 --> 00:20:54.430
helping with the positioning and messaging.
412
00:20:54.430 --> 00:20:57.970
And it's really the most effective product organizations
413
00:20:57.970 --> 00:21:01.263
have both of these roles working closely together.
414
00:21:05.890 --> 00:21:08.393
Now, when we think about where we get,
415
00:21:09.724 --> 00:21:11.774
when we think about where to get started,
416
00:21:13.060 --> 00:21:16.460
this is something that we walk you through in the research
417
00:21:16.460 --> 00:21:18.213
and we do talk, and we do,
418
00:21:19.530 --> 00:21:22.380
here's an example of what we had done with another member
419
00:21:23.290 --> 00:21:24.530
around where they got started
420
00:21:24.530 --> 00:21:26.990
with their product management transformation.
421
00:21:26.990 --> 00:21:31.180
And this is meant to help you articulate to your leadership,
422
00:21:31.180 --> 00:21:32.800
where they should getting started,
423
00:21:32.800 --> 00:21:34.880
where should they be thinking about right now
424
00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:38.213
versus what they can be thinking about later on.
425
00:21:43.470 --> 00:21:46.453
Now this wraps up the presentation itself.
426
00:21:47.320 --> 00:21:49.270
Now let's turn now to some of the questions
427
00:21:49.270 --> 00:21:51.420
that have come in from our attendees today.
428
00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:54.473
Thanks ARI.
429
00:21:54.473 --> 00:21:58.540
So we've got a great question from Chris Arthur, who asks,
430
00:21:58.540 --> 00:22:01.080
do we consider infrastructure services
431
00:22:01.080 --> 00:22:03.760
like voice and networking as product?
432
00:22:03.760 --> 00:22:05.980
What about things like desktop services
433
00:22:05.980 --> 00:22:08.940
or service desk functions or security,
434
00:22:08.940 --> 00:22:12.753
would those be products in our context?
435
00:22:13.660 --> 00:22:14.910
So that's a great question, Chris.
436
00:22:14.910 --> 00:22:17.800
And absolutely we can consider them to be products
437
00:22:20.107 --> 00:22:21.380
in our context.
438
00:22:21.380 --> 00:22:23.860
You can look at the services that it's providing.
439
00:22:23.860 --> 00:22:25.590
You could look at the there's a long term
440
00:22:25.590 --> 00:22:27.330
delivery of value there,
441
00:22:27.330 --> 00:22:30.750
you can look at the various aspects of this and realize
442
00:22:30.750 --> 00:22:33.020
that yes, those are products.
443
00:22:33.020 --> 00:22:35.990
Now the challenge there that you'll run into is how granular
444
00:22:35.990 --> 00:22:38.080
you wanna be in that definition.
445
00:22:38.080 --> 00:22:40.653
And so I'll give you one great example here.
446
00:22:41.790 --> 00:22:43.800
I had one member come to me and ask about,
447
00:22:43.800 --> 00:22:45.740
they had an exchange server and they wanted to treat
448
00:22:45.740 --> 00:22:47.910
the exchange server as the product.
449
00:22:47.910 --> 00:22:50.430
And so I talked with them a little bit,
450
00:22:50.430 --> 00:22:52.460
I understood why they said that.
451
00:22:52.460 --> 00:22:55.130
And what we had settled on after, really shortening
452
00:22:55.130 --> 00:22:57.913
the one hour conversation into 30 seconds here is,
453
00:22:58.860 --> 00:23:01.650
we had come to an agreement or they had come
454
00:23:01.650 --> 00:23:06.650
to a realization that it's not about the exchange server,
455
00:23:06.970 --> 00:23:09.640
it's about collaboration and the service of providing
456
00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:13.170
collaboration services in the organization as the product.
457
00:23:13.170 --> 00:23:15.620
And so that level of granularity is what you'll need
458
00:23:15.620 --> 00:23:18.660
to think about Chris, but absolutely those kinds of items
459
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:22.603
and services can be considered products.
460
00:23:25.210 --> 00:23:26.043
Thanks Ari.
461
00:23:26.043 --> 00:23:28.340
We've got another question from Erin
462
00:23:28.340 --> 00:23:31.120
around the product owner capabilities.
463
00:23:31.120 --> 00:23:34.880
Would we consider those to be both capabilities
464
00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:38.910
required in product owners or product managers,
465
00:23:38.910 --> 00:23:42.350
or are there different types of capabilities
466
00:23:42.350 --> 00:23:44.808
for those two different roles?
467
00:23:44.808 --> 00:23:46.880
That's a really great question.
468
00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:50.730
And so, it's a different waiting that happens.
469
00:23:50.730 --> 00:23:54.433
And so let me flip back to that slide very quickly here.
470
00:23:56.720 --> 00:23:59.760
And so what you'll find is, depending you're talking about
471
00:23:59.760 --> 00:24:02.540
the tactical or the strategic form of that role,
472
00:24:02.540 --> 00:24:05.790
what you'll find is there's a different,
473
00:24:05.790 --> 00:24:08.080
there's be a different emphasis in waiting
474
00:24:08.080 --> 00:24:09.980
in terms of the capabilities.
475
00:24:09.980 --> 00:24:13.030
So as an example, the tactical form of the role will tend
476
00:24:13.030 --> 00:24:16.940
to use a lot more from product life cycle management
477
00:24:16.940 --> 00:24:20.150
versus versus the strategic form of the role
478
00:24:20.150 --> 00:24:22.840
where for example, the strategic form of the role
479
00:24:22.840 --> 00:24:25.590
will tend to lean much more heavily on capabilities
480
00:24:25.590 --> 00:24:27.290
in terms of vision.
481
00:24:27.290 --> 00:24:29.510
What I do wanna say though is,
482
00:24:29.510 --> 00:24:31.610
it's just that the waiting is different.
483
00:24:31.610 --> 00:24:35.050
It is important that you see some elements of this
484
00:24:35.050 --> 00:24:38.510
in being used, regardless of whether you're approaching
485
00:24:38.510 --> 00:24:41.473
this from a more tactical or a strategic point of view.
486
00:24:46.850 --> 00:24:48.260
Great, thanks Ari.
487
00:24:48.260 --> 00:24:50.800
Pierre asks, if we can talk a little bit about
488
00:24:50.800 --> 00:24:53.610
the difference between a platform and a product
489
00:24:54.620 --> 00:24:56.513
as we transform the organization.
490
00:24:57.900 --> 00:25:01.650
So to put it simply all platforms
491
00:25:01.650 --> 00:25:03.850
can be treated as products,
492
00:25:03.850 --> 00:25:07.940
all products can't necessarily be treated as platforms.
493
00:25:07.940 --> 00:25:09.760
And so if you,
494
00:25:09.760 --> 00:25:12.207
so when we talk about products and managing products
495
00:25:12.207 --> 00:25:15.540
and product families, you can manage,
496
00:25:15.540 --> 00:25:18.140
if something is considered to be a platform,
497
00:25:18.140 --> 00:25:20.883
you can absolutely manage it as such.
498
00:25:22.050 --> 00:25:25.450
And really in terms of the criteria that you'd use
499
00:25:25.450 --> 00:25:28.360
to define is something a platform or not,
500
00:25:28.360 --> 00:25:29.610
setting up a call with Info-Tech,
501
00:25:29.610 --> 00:25:31.500
we'll be glad to walk you through that criteria
502
00:25:31.500 --> 00:25:33.693
and how you'd make that decision.
503
00:25:35.550 --> 00:25:36.860
Thanks Ari.
504
00:25:36.860 --> 00:25:39.540
Robert has a question around projects
505
00:25:39.540 --> 00:25:41.513
and projects within product.
506
00:25:42.410 --> 00:25:44.650
So if we want to flip that back to that slide,
507
00:25:44.650 --> 00:25:48.340
but he asked if we see organizations using
508
00:25:48.340 --> 00:25:50.370
projects within products.
509
00:25:50.370 --> 00:25:54.160
And does that mean that there's changing in teams
510
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:55.640
every time within the product,
511
00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:58.160
because you define a new project team
512
00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:01.634
every time you do a new project within the product.
513
00:26:01.634 --> 00:26:03.150
So that's a great question.
514
00:26:03.150 --> 00:26:05.580
And we have an actually a completely different piece
515
00:26:05.580 --> 00:26:08.740
of research that covers the role of project practices
516
00:26:08.740 --> 00:26:11.680
within a product-centric organization.
517
00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:14.890
But what I'll say is that, depending on this,
518
00:26:14.890 --> 00:26:17.020
the level of transformation you've done,
519
00:26:17.020 --> 00:26:20.520
generally speaking the product team stays together.
520
00:26:20.520 --> 00:26:22.570
There are other individuals that wrap around
521
00:26:22.570 --> 00:26:27.070
that product team in order to enable the project specific
522
00:26:27.070 --> 00:26:28.430
mechanics around it.
523
00:26:28.430 --> 00:26:30.963
But in general, you don't want to,
524
00:26:31.900 --> 00:26:34.100
you don't wanna break down the product teams
525
00:26:35.120 --> 00:26:39.530
every time a project changes or you go for change
526
00:26:39.530 --> 00:26:40.963
from one project to another.
527
00:26:43.570 --> 00:26:44.410
Great, thanks Ari.
528
00:26:44.410 --> 00:26:46.520
We had another question around budget.
529
00:26:46.520 --> 00:26:50.300
Do we have any guidance or thoughts around the breakup
530
00:26:50.300 --> 00:26:53.573
of a product budget between CapEx and OpEx?
531
00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:56.450
Yeah, so that's a great question.
532
00:26:56.450 --> 00:26:59.220
And so the way, the way that we talk,
533
00:26:59.220 --> 00:27:01.811
the way we look at CapEx versus OpEx
534
00:27:01.811 --> 00:27:06.143
in a product-centric model really comes down to,
535
00:27:07.029 --> 00:27:10.470
what are we doing that is building something new
536
00:27:10.470 --> 00:27:15.390
versus what are we doing that is keeping the lights on.
537
00:27:15.390 --> 00:27:19.310
Now in a traditional project focused way of working
538
00:27:19.310 --> 00:27:22.930
in general, the first release of the product is in V1
539
00:27:23.970 --> 00:27:27.150
is 80% CapEx and everything afterwards is OpEx,
540
00:27:27.150 --> 00:27:28.840
'cause you're just keeping the lights on.
541
00:27:28.840 --> 00:27:30.750
What we see in reality, and what we see
542
00:27:30.750 --> 00:27:33.270
especially in a product-centric delivery model
543
00:27:33.270 --> 00:27:37.260
is that relationship's inverted that really over time
544
00:27:37.260 --> 00:27:40.520
as you're going from release to release, to release,
545
00:27:40.520 --> 00:27:42.820
you're continually adding things to the product.
546
00:27:42.820 --> 00:27:46.680
You're continually adding rooms to the house,
547
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:49.770
adding very large capital like items.
548
00:27:49.770 --> 00:27:53.050
And so we look at CapEx as something that is continually
549
00:27:53.050 --> 00:27:55.570
spent throughout the lifetime of the product,
550
00:27:55.570 --> 00:27:57.463
not just in the first release.
551
00:28:00.100 --> 00:28:01.433
Thanks Ari.
552
00:28:01.433 --> 00:28:03.810
Another question has come in around data.
553
00:28:03.810 --> 00:28:06.300
Would we consider data as a product
554
00:28:06.300 --> 00:28:09.770
given that it's often used for analytics and operations
555
00:28:10.750 --> 00:28:12.433
processes and research?
556
00:28:14.320 --> 00:28:18.270
So the database table itself, if I'm gonna be very,
557
00:28:18.270 --> 00:28:20.120
if I'm gonna answer the question narrowly,
558
00:28:20.120 --> 00:28:22.240
that's not quite what I would consider to be
559
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:27.240
a product itself, but really the capability of delivering
560
00:28:28.726 --> 00:28:31.600
that data or delivering the intent behind that data,
561
00:28:31.600 --> 00:28:34.283
you can treat with product specific practices.
562
00:28:36.170 --> 00:28:37.360
Great, thanks.
563
00:28:37.360 --> 00:28:40.450
Another question is coming around a role called
564
00:28:40.450 --> 00:28:43.370
application owner versus product owner.
565
00:28:43.370 --> 00:28:46.970
Would we consider those the same or are those potentially
566
00:28:46.970 --> 00:28:48.093
two distinct roles?
567
00:28:49.810 --> 00:28:52.760
Yeah so now, I'm gonna give the annoying answer
568
00:28:52.760 --> 00:28:54.080
is it depends.
569
00:28:54.080 --> 00:28:56.670
And I'm just gonna flip back to a slide here.
570
00:28:56.670 --> 00:28:59.698
Really, this is thecriteria that I would look at
571
00:28:59.698 --> 00:29:01.720
when you're trying to answer that question.
572
00:29:01.720 --> 00:29:05.140
What does this application owner do day to day?
573
00:29:05.140 --> 00:29:06.640
What are they accountable for?
574
00:29:07.682 --> 00:29:08.890
In a lot of cases,
575
00:29:08.890 --> 00:29:10.720
if I wanna be a little less coy with my answer
576
00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:13.670
in a lot of cases, when our members say application owner,
577
00:29:13.670 --> 00:29:16.320
they really are talking about a product owner here,
578
00:29:16.320 --> 00:29:18.630
but again, it really does depend on what
579
00:29:18.630 --> 00:29:21.193
your application owner actually does.
580
00:29:23.860 --> 00:29:25.210
Great, thanks Ari.
581
00:29:25.210 --> 00:29:27.500
And we have a question just around
582
00:29:27.500 --> 00:29:29.260
how you make this transition.
583
00:29:29.260 --> 00:29:32.530
So if a company is more project oriented
584
00:29:32.530 --> 00:29:35.120
and now wishes to move to product,
585
00:29:35.120 --> 00:29:38.163
what do we sort of recommend as a first step down the path?
586
00:29:40.117 --> 00:29:43.520
So, when making the case here, we are trying to define
587
00:29:43.520 --> 00:29:46.110
a lot of those steps that you want to take.
588
00:29:46.110 --> 00:29:47.820
And I would say the first step here,
589
00:29:47.820 --> 00:29:50.980
I'm gonna go back to this slide here is really thinking
590
00:29:50.980 --> 00:29:53.760
about laying out your proper accountabilities
591
00:29:53.760 --> 00:29:55.870
for who is accountable for,
592
00:29:55.870 --> 00:29:58.140
for whatever value is being delivered.
593
00:29:58.140 --> 00:30:01.910
Now, if you're talking about more specific tactical steps,
594
00:30:01.910 --> 00:30:04.640
this is where our Info-Tech research
595
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:05.650
can come into play here.
596
00:30:05.650 --> 00:30:07.880
And bear with me I was gonna find the slide here.
597
00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:11.920
Where really, where we get started with a lot of our members
598
00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:14.490
is here at number three around delivering
599
00:30:14.490 --> 00:30:15.800
our new digital product vision.
600
00:30:15.800 --> 00:30:20.480
And this is about all of the activities to define
601
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:22.640
the vision for a given product area,
602
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:25.499
define the goals and the metrics, and really
603
00:30:25.499 --> 00:30:27.700
what are the things I need to put into place
604
00:30:27.700 --> 00:30:30.510
in order to be able to drive that through?
605
00:30:30.510 --> 00:30:32.230
So that's how Info-Tech can help.
606
00:30:32.230 --> 00:30:34.540
But really the way we talk about a transformation
607
00:30:34.540 --> 00:30:35.960
is you wanna start small.
608
00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:40.580
You want to experiment, pick a pilot and have a good partner
609
00:30:40.580 --> 00:30:42.950
with you to help guide you through this.
610
00:30:42.950 --> 00:30:44.250
Info-Tech is here to help.
611
00:30:45.940 --> 00:30:47.063
Great, thanks Ari.
612
00:30:48.030 --> 00:30:50.360
Another question has come in around the relationship
613
00:30:50.360 --> 00:30:53.155
between product and the operating model
614
00:30:53.155 --> 00:30:55.940
that an organization is implemented.
615
00:30:55.940 --> 00:30:58.680
Is there relationship between those two things
616
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:02.360
or are they independent and should the product approach
617
00:31:02.360 --> 00:31:05.690
really be determined before you get into organizational
618
00:31:05.690 --> 00:31:08.990
design and putting together the organization?
619
00:31:08.990 --> 00:31:10.607
So that's a great question.
620
00:31:10.607 --> 00:31:15.440
And so I've purposely not talked about organization design
621
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:16.560
here in too much detail,
622
00:31:16.560 --> 00:31:20.270
because that is something that a lot of times understanding
623
00:31:20.270 --> 00:31:23.660
the product practices and understanding product ownership,
624
00:31:23.660 --> 00:31:26.310
those really do need to come first.
625
00:31:26.310 --> 00:31:29.070
There is many organizations and we work with many members
626
00:31:29.070 --> 00:31:31.140
where the way they get things done
627
00:31:31.140 --> 00:31:32.770
is through the power of reorgs.
628
00:31:32.770 --> 00:31:35.916
And so a lot of times they'd want to try to reorg first,
629
00:31:35.916 --> 00:31:40.240
before putting any product practices into place.
630
00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:43.290
There is definitely a relationship there.
631
00:31:43.290 --> 00:31:45.860
We can talk about that and that requires
632
00:31:45.860 --> 00:31:49.600
a further analyst call with one of the members of my team,
633
00:31:49.600 --> 00:31:51.620
but absolutely,
634
00:31:51.620 --> 00:31:53.820
if that's absolutely something that we can talk about,
635
00:31:53.820 --> 00:31:55.440
and there are different models,
636
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:59.820
different design organization structures and models
637
00:31:59.820 --> 00:32:02.990
that better support product-centric delivery
638
00:32:02.990 --> 00:32:05.890
versus others which tend to make that a little bit harder.
639
00:32:06.770 --> 00:32:07.760
Thanks Ari.
640
00:32:07.760 --> 00:32:11.170
We've got a question around product organization
641
00:32:11.170 --> 00:32:13.810
when you have something like ERP,
642
00:32:13.810 --> 00:32:15.910
which potentially has different modules.
643
00:32:15.910 --> 00:32:17.790
How do you draw the line?
644
00:32:17.790 --> 00:32:19.610
Is the ERP the product?
645
00:32:19.610 --> 00:32:21.700
Are the modules the product?
646
00:32:21.700 --> 00:32:23.500
How do we figure that one out?
647
00:32:23.500 --> 00:32:25.470
Yeah and that's a great question.
648
00:32:25.470 --> 00:32:30.270
And that really does lend itself to a bigger conversation
649
00:32:30.270 --> 00:32:33.470
on how big are those modules there?
650
00:32:33.470 --> 00:32:36.570
Do they, can they be independently managed,
651
00:32:36.570 --> 00:32:38.080
independently rolled out?
652
00:32:38.080 --> 00:32:40.950
And so one of things that tends to,
653
00:32:40.950 --> 00:32:44.300
one of the things that we tend to do and tend to think about
654
00:32:44.300 --> 00:32:48.040
is we treat the ERP as that family of products
655
00:32:48.040 --> 00:32:51.000
with those modules as being individual products underneath,
656
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:53.230
that is a possible way to model this.
657
00:32:53.230 --> 00:32:55.030
Some of our members,
658
00:32:55.030 --> 00:32:57.100
if those individual modules are too small
659
00:32:57.100 --> 00:33:00.990
or if they're not really managed independently
660
00:33:00.990 --> 00:33:04.270
in general you could treat the ERP as the product itself.
661
00:33:04.270 --> 00:33:08.150
This depends on sort of the, your organization structure,
662
00:33:08.150 --> 00:33:09.440
the people that you have.
663
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:11.990
There are a few factors that go into this decision.
664
00:33:13.787 --> 00:33:14.770
Great, thanks Ari.
665
00:33:14.770 --> 00:33:17.850
And when we looked at the role of the product owner,
666
00:33:17.850 --> 00:33:21.120
are there also operational aspects of the role that need
667
00:33:21.120 --> 00:33:25.030
to be considered around managing procurement of tools
668
00:33:25.030 --> 00:33:29.300
and of software that you're buying of forecasting run rates
669
00:33:29.300 --> 00:33:31.250
and revenue and all of those things.
670
00:33:31.250 --> 00:33:35.040
Is that operational planning and management aspect
671
00:33:35.040 --> 00:33:36.133
of the role as well.
672
00:33:37.860 --> 00:33:42.740
So, I've seen the organizations where that operation,
673
00:33:42.740 --> 00:33:46.270
that operational planning side of it does roll up
674
00:33:46.270 --> 00:33:47.333
into the team.
675
00:33:48.321 --> 00:33:53.080
In general, product ownership is a full-time job on its own.
676
00:33:53.080 --> 00:33:55.490
Now that doesn't mean if we think of it from a racy context,
677
00:33:55.490 --> 00:33:59.240
that doesn't mean that product management isn't consulted,
678
00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:02.690
or isn't made aware of what's going on there,
679
00:34:02.690 --> 00:34:07.010
but in general we don't see it.
680
00:34:07.010 --> 00:34:10.540
We don't see it rolling up that often though it can,
681
00:34:10.540 --> 00:34:13.210
but I'm gonna just refer back to this as being really
682
00:34:13.210 --> 00:34:15.780
at its core, the things that are critically important
683
00:34:15.780 --> 00:34:17.400
that product management needs to do.
684
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:20.930
If they wanna take on extra things because they have to,
685
00:34:20.930 --> 00:34:21.973
that's fine.
686
00:34:24.550 --> 00:34:26.240
Great, thanks Ari.
687
00:34:26.240 --> 00:34:29.376
And one more question we've got is around team size.
688
00:34:29.376 --> 00:34:32.270
So is there sort of a minimum team size
689
00:34:32.270 --> 00:34:35.520
where you get the benefits of going to product ownership
690
00:34:35.520 --> 00:34:39.150
versus just running things with multiple people
691
00:34:39.150 --> 00:34:40.300
playing multiple roles?
692
00:34:42.880 --> 00:34:43.713
Yeah, so it,
693
00:34:44.840 --> 00:34:48.650
now you get into a bit of a annoying question
694
00:34:48.650 --> 00:34:49.900
on what you mean by team.
695
00:34:50.834 --> 00:34:54.710
But at the end of the day as a,
696
00:34:54.710 --> 00:34:57.200
I don't know if I wanna necessarily talk about team size,
697
00:34:57.200 --> 00:34:59.650
but I'll talk about the different roles in the dance
698
00:34:59.650 --> 00:35:02.420
that need to be represented on a given team.
699
00:35:02.420 --> 00:35:05.346
Now, when we think about broadly speaking about
700
00:35:05.346 --> 00:35:07.760
the product team, we think about it from a few aspects.
701
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:09.970
Who holds the flag for the what,
702
00:35:09.970 --> 00:35:12.160
who holds the flag for the why,
703
00:35:12.160 --> 00:35:14.690
and who holds the flag for the how.
704
00:35:14.690 --> 00:35:16.880
And so you can think of that, that on a,
705
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:19.450
for a product team to be able to effectively deliver,
706
00:35:19.450 --> 00:35:22.870
you want to have, you don't want to have product ownership.
707
00:35:22.870 --> 00:35:25.770
You want to have engineering leadership.
708
00:35:25.770 --> 00:35:28.590
You want to have perhaps business analysis
709
00:35:28.590 --> 00:35:31.110
to help with requirements gathering,
710
00:35:31.110 --> 00:35:34.830
UX design to help with the experience side of things.
711
00:35:34.830 --> 00:35:35.740
It really is,
712
00:35:35.740 --> 00:35:38.150
it really depends on the product that you're delivering,
713
00:35:38.150 --> 00:35:40.490
but as opposed to focusing on a number
714
00:35:40.490 --> 00:35:43.800
I'm more focused on having adequate representation
715
00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:46.933
to ensure that all aspects of product are considered.
716
00:35:50.520 --> 00:35:51.623
Great, thanks Ari.
717
00:35:52.610 --> 00:35:54.000
Maybe a final thought,
718
00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:56.020
'cause I think we've gone through all the questions.
719
00:35:56.020 --> 00:35:59.180
But a final thought on what people should really watch for
720
00:35:59.180 --> 00:36:01.380
as they start to move down this journey
721
00:36:01.380 --> 00:36:05.040
and what are those common props that you would recommend
722
00:36:05.040 --> 00:36:07.690
people to be careful of as they start down this road?
723
00:36:10.040 --> 00:36:13.870
One of the biggest challenges that I see our members make
724
00:36:13.870 --> 00:36:15.240
and just from my past life
725
00:36:15.240 --> 00:36:18.513
is biting off too much too quickly.
726
00:36:19.700 --> 00:36:21.210
Change is a process.
727
00:36:21.210 --> 00:36:23.530
It's not a light switch, it's not an event.
728
00:36:23.530 --> 00:36:25.310
And change takes time.
729
00:36:25.310 --> 00:36:30.310
So, start off small, bite off a small piece,
730
00:36:30.340 --> 00:36:34.010
don't be afraid to pilot, pilot your product practices
731
00:36:34.010 --> 00:36:36.000
in one part of the organization
732
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:38.710
and not be afraid to learn from it.
733
00:36:38.710 --> 00:36:41.540
If it, you wanna see of course that it went well,
734
00:36:41.540 --> 00:36:43.280
but you wanna pay close attention
735
00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:44.930
to the things that don't go well.
736
00:36:46.420 --> 00:36:50.240
Another thing that people don't take to account
737
00:36:50.240 --> 00:36:54.880
with product practices is getting used to the fact that
738
00:36:56.150 --> 00:37:01.150
failure is a constant, not colossal failure, but you will,
739
00:37:03.610 --> 00:37:05.940
because of the way product practices are set up.
740
00:37:05.940 --> 00:37:07.500
I mean, there'll be a lot more iteration,
741
00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:08.920
a lot more experimentation,
742
00:37:08.920 --> 00:37:11.920
a lot more, very rapid decisions being made.
743
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:14.463
Sometimes they'll work, sometimes they won't.
744
00:37:16.634 --> 00:37:18.727
Failing early on is much better than spending
745
00:37:18.727 --> 00:37:20.713
$6 million and failing later.
746
00:37:26.990 --> 00:37:27.823
Great, thanks Ari.
747
00:37:27.823 --> 00:37:30.400
And just one more question that's come in is around
748
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:33.810
product ownership and how it aligns
749
00:37:33.810 --> 00:37:36.850
to the role of a business relationship manager.
750
00:37:36.850 --> 00:37:38.540
Have we heard anything about that
751
00:37:38.540 --> 00:37:41.468
and how would we see those working together?
752
00:37:41.468 --> 00:37:44.320
And so this is a great question and Info-Tech,
753
00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:46.170
we do have a fair amount of research when it comes
754
00:37:46.170 --> 00:37:48.360
to talking about the BRM role.
755
00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:52.150
What I'll say is that definitely those roles work,
756
00:37:52.150 --> 00:37:54.040
those roles work hand in hand,
757
00:37:54.040 --> 00:37:56.980
and depending on the strength of your product management
758
00:37:56.980 --> 00:37:59.380
practice or the strength of your BRM practice,
759
00:37:59.380 --> 00:38:02.060
you'll find that one tends to have a stronger voice
760
00:38:02.060 --> 00:38:05.690
than the other, in the conversation.
761
00:38:05.690 --> 00:38:08.730
The BRM is focused around,
762
00:38:08.730 --> 00:38:10.860
smoothing out what I would call the imperfections
763
00:38:10.860 --> 00:38:14.060
in the relationship between business and IT.
764
00:38:14.060 --> 00:38:18.723
Really helping align IT supply with business demand.
765
00:38:19.900 --> 00:38:22.000
Product management is all about more that
766
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:24.888
definition of the what and enabling
767
00:38:24.888 --> 00:38:26.830
the delivery of the what.
768
00:38:26.830 --> 00:38:30.990
And so what you'll find is that there is a fair amount
769
00:38:30.990 --> 00:38:33.140
of collaboration between both of those roles
770
00:38:33.140 --> 00:38:37.670
in order to ensure that alignment between business and IT.
771
00:38:37.670 --> 00:38:39.150
In smaller organizations,
772
00:38:39.150 --> 00:38:42.610
product ownership tends to take that over exclusively.
773
00:38:42.610 --> 00:38:45.650
As organizations grow in much more complex
774
00:38:45.650 --> 00:38:50.370
and more matrix organizations, BRM does play
775
00:38:50.370 --> 00:38:53.620
an important role there to ensure that that proper alignment
776
00:38:53.620 --> 00:38:56.278
and ensure that everything that the business needs
777
00:38:56.278 --> 00:39:00.050
either are being satisfied or that product managers
778
00:39:00.050 --> 00:39:01.300
are aware of those business needs
779
00:39:01.300 --> 00:39:03.193
so they can eventually be satisfied.
780
00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:08.100
Thanks Ari.
781
00:39:08.100 --> 00:39:11.553
I think that is all the questions we've gotten in today.
782
00:39:11.553 --> 00:39:13.930
All right, that's excellent.
783
00:39:13.930 --> 00:39:18.450
And thank you so much Suneel for all your help here
784
00:39:18.450 --> 00:39:20.770
and thank you so much to everyone
785
00:39:20.770 --> 00:39:23.430
for attending our webinar today.
786
00:39:23.430 --> 00:39:25.240
If you would like more information,
787
00:39:25.240 --> 00:39:27.650
feel free to reach out to your account rep.
788
00:39:27.650 --> 00:39:29.990
If you're not currently an Info-Tech member,
789
00:39:29.990 --> 00:39:31.670
you can reach out to Dave Bell
790
00:39:31.670 --> 00:39:33.570
at the email address on the screen,
791
00:39:33.570 --> 00:39:35.433
and he will be happy to help you out.
792
00:39:36.310 --> 00:39:37.810
Have a wonderful day everyone.